Courtney Collins - Writer and Producer

In this special episode, our usual presenter, Courtney Collins, is interviewed by our Producer Lisa Madden.

Courtney talks about her novel writing process and her PhD 'Working against whiteness in creative literary production'. She shares insights from living in the remote Northern Territory in Ngukurr, working amongst the indigenous community, and how what she learnt in that time has influenced her work and her life.

Many thanks to Hattie Dalton for allowing us to use her outrageous but immediately understandable quote in this episode.

This is the final episode in Series 2 of 'Are You Still Working?!', do let us know if there's anyone you'd like us to interview for Series 3, and follow us on Instagram @areyoustillworkingpodcast.

Transcript

Are You Still Working?!
Series 2 - Episode 10, Courtney Collins - Writer and Producer
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[00:00:00] 

Lisa: Hello! Today's episode of Are You Still Working? is presented by me, Lisa Madden. Usually I'm producing and editing, but today is a special episode where I wanted to interview Courtney, and she can hardly interview herself. Though I wouldn't put it past her, there's not much she can't do. So here we go.

Courtney Collins is a writer and producer. Her debut novel, The Burial, was based on the real life story of a female bushranger in the Hunter [00:00:30] Valley. It was nominated for a bunch of prestigious awards, including the Stella Prize and the New South Wales Premier's Award for New Writing.

It was published in 10 countries and is being developed into a feature film by Pure Pictures. Her second novel, Bird, was published by Hachette and hit the shelves this year. Courtney lived in Ngukurr in the remote Northern Territory for eight years, where she produced short films and animation in community.

She's currently working on a PhD, 'Working against whiteness in creative literary production'. [00:01:00] She lives on Gumbaynggirr  country on the mid north coast of New South Wales, but today we're on Gadigal and Wangal country in Sydney. Courtney, 

Thank you. One of the things that I love about this podcast is finding out how people motivate themselves when they set their own agenda. It's really trained out of us through school and what have you.

We're so used to following instructions. you've been doing this for many years. You've even said that you're addicted to working in this way. How do you motivate yourself [00:01:30] when no one is telling you what to do? 

Courtney: So it's you, I only want to tell you the truth and the truth is motivation, discipline have nothing to do with it.

It doesn't enter the room, So I have to motivate myself to clean the windows. But I don't have to motivate myself to write or make things. It's as necessary as breathing. there's no friction. And I [00:02:00] guess what I'm learning now is that discipline is in not doing it. The discipline is in, Actually having time away from it to, you know, be inspired to rest, to synthesize ideas, to like take care of my physical body, which doesn't love sitting at a desk all day.

So the motivation is, it's no work. There's no work involved in getting there. it's so life giving really that. [00:02:30] It is addictive in that way. You know, there's parts of the process that I guess I feel more naturally adept to and other parts I've learned to love. yeah, 

Lisa: Wow. 

Courtney: That's the truth.

Lisa: So what gets in the way then?

Courtney: Of doing the work? There's a practicality around, keeping a roof over your head, paying the bills. That's a pressure that the work doesn't always answer to, you know, it can be very boom and bust. [00:03:00] And if you want to set yourself on a surefire track to be broke, write a novel and do a PhD. It takes enormous amounts of space and time. I've kind of, coached myself to let go of some material aspirations that would really get in the way.

And I guess, you know, the way that Jude and I choose to live is fairly minimal. And we live in the bush and we try and grow our own food and, you know, that in [00:03:30] itself takes labor, but it is such a fine balance to achieve, to not feel pressure of that. And, the anxiety of that. Yeah.

Lisa: Amazing. I always sensed that self doubt wasn't a big deal for you, but now I kind of feel like it's confirmed that it's just flowing out no matter what.

Courtney: Well, the self doubt, if there's doubt, it's around, if I take, money or material possessions as a measure of [00:04:00] success. I would be full of doubt because it doesn't always equate to that.

But if I take, experience, pleasure, ideas, relationships as a measure of success, I feel abundant. 

Lisa: You're a very rich woman. 

Courtney: I'm a very rich woman. 

Lisa: Very prosaic here. Do you have a very set schedule for your days?

Courtney: Well the project is the guide and there was a period not so long ago [00:04:30] where I was getting up at four o'clock in the morning and just feeling like I was so smart and so spooky at that hour. And that fades when the sun, when the sun comes up, and it was such a productive, important time for the book.

I could find something in those hours, but because, you know, I want to keep functioning and functional in my bigger life, that meant I had to be in bed by about eight o'clock. And as you know, you know, my [00:05:00] house, it has, outside walls, but there's no interior walls except for the bathroom. So sharing with Jude and Vali, our dog, we all have to find a rhythm together.

So now, you know, my routine is that I get up at six o'clock, I have a coffee, I get to the desk and I still, I love those early magic hours. it's a slipstream for me. if I get to the desk too late in the day, I'm just, hating on myself because the cogs are just whirring more [00:05:30] slowly .

Lisa: That's about knowing yourself and knowing your own rhythms and being able to connect to the times when you're most likely to be productive. 

Courtney: I guess it's also experimenting and knowing that body changes and that at different times, the project will ask different things and require a different energy.

Lisa: Amazing. How do you know that an idea is the one? As a creative person, I'm sure you're having lots of [00:06:00] ideas all the time. How do you kind of distinguish between one that you think has legs and others that might not?

Courtney: I think it's not so much trusting an because an idea, experience, morphs. You know, you think you're writing about one thing, you end up Being taken far, far down that road. So the trust is in the process. I, trust the process. And by that, I mean,

[00:06:30] when I sit down to write, I don't always know what I'm going to write about.

I don't completely map out the story.

I am putting myself in a place, in a head space of being open to discover and I'm really interested in what wants to come through and I trust that what wants to come through maybe, I have to kind of rise to that, that it may be a bit ahead of me in terms of my capability, [00:07:00] my sense of the world, my sense of myself, it pushes you out towards the unknown. That's what's interesting about it. And I think it's important that I remain true to that process because I want the reader to experience the novelty and surprise of that discovery in the way that I felt it as well.

Are you able to give an example of that, Sure.so in, the second novel, which is called the [00:07:30] Walkman Mix. In one telling, that could look like a complete failure in the sense of a lot of time spent.

I, years ago, submitted it to, my publisher at the time and she hated it and it felt like a terrible setback. It felt devastating. So, I lost confidence in it as a story In my mind, I put it on ice. I didn't abandon it. I just was like, don't quite know what to [00:08:00] do with you.

And I trotted off and wrote another book, which had its own energy that I was just kind of running behind really. So what happened in letting it rest or putting it on ice is that it's solved itself in the way that it was. I know crisply, clearly how to finish that book now. And for me, that means I'll go to Ireland. there's parts of it that are set in Dublin. So I need to [00:08:30] be in that place and write on that country. And it's so exciting because in trusting the process, Maybe there were things in my life that had to occur for me to really know what the hell that story was about, but
it's led me back to it, it hasn't answered itself. I've been a willing participant, but I'm trusting where it's taking me.

Lisa: That's a great answer. I love the second book's coming back. When we interviewed Amanda Roff in series one, she spoke about [00:09:00] her tendency to mythologize and said that you have it in spades as well. I would agree with that, that you have this ability to make smooth nuggets out of messy, tangential information could you comment on that?

Courtney: That sounds great, but I don't know if I do that as much in terms of mythologizing people.

Lisa: I think it was events or anything at all. It's quite broad.

Courtney: Okay. Well, the way I understand it is that I think [00:09:30] everybody I know has main character energy. You know, everybody I know could be the lead in a novel or a film in the way that if you pay enough attention, people are endlessly fascinating.

So that's one part of it. But I guess there's a part of it that maybe there is a bit of, yeah, polishing of stones. It's not conscious. But I do think about people as characters a lot and what their story would [00:10:00] be and how I would love to tell that.

And there's not enough time in a life to do that. I mean, people are always doing things that have these incredible vibrations and come with soundtrack and yeah, I'm interested in story. So I guess that's how I understand people by both the stories they tell and the way they perform in their life.

You know, the performative aspect of being them. 

Lisa: [00:10:30] Diversity. You're currently working on a PhD, Working against whiteness in creative literary production. How important is diverse representation in your work and how consciously do you place it?

Courtney: Hmm. So living in the Northern Territory and being in a community where, um, as a white woman, I was absolutely in the minority, was a really important experience for me in terms of having my [00:11:00] whiteness and my culture exposed to me there's a whole, cultural load and responsibility around, of course, whose story you get to tell and how you find permission and your own agency in terms of telling those stories. I just actually think it's a question of survival. we can't be in this place and not seek to understand each other and think that things will be okay. [00:11:30] have to be so vigilant about the silos that we make for ourselves. And of course there's risk in reaching outside of them, but.

What doesn't seem to be accounted for or celebrated is for the risk. There is infinite reward of relationship and understanding and sharing and reciprocity and respect. And yeah, really being gifted with getting to know someone and them sharing their experience worldview. [00:12:00] It's what I want to be doing, you know. 

Lisa: And how do you think it's going generally in creative production?

Courtney: OK. That's a really good and really big question It's complex. In terms of presenting stories in a marketplace or a public space, I think there's a sense, that if you don't get it right, They'll come for you, whoever they are, the cultural police. and there's been many examples of, the [00:12:30] cancel culture is all around us. So there, there is a responsibility to do your best and to get it right and to decenter yourself in that and to not be the expert in that.

But I guess what I hope is opening up more is less defensiveness and more dialogue, because how else do we learn? So if we, come with these fully formed ideas and not an openness [00:13:00] to be wrong, then I think we're setting ourselves up for failure.

So I think there's something about. How you enter the public space with story and how you remain open and vulnerable to not getting it right.

Lisa: Wow

And then there's gender diversity. It's not what it should be. It doesn't feel like the needle has moved enough, even though people are aware of the [00:13:30] stats.

Courtney: There's a lot of lip service. There's a lot of lip service. There are a lot of gatekeepers. The idea of 'female led films', and knowing what funding gets apportioned to female led films and who gets to make those films or not.

We don't talk about 'male led' films, right? So there is a long way to go. in terms of the energy required to make something and the risk, the personal [00:14:00] risk. I think it's around aligning yourself and being energized by the creative risks that your, peers and colleagues are taking and finding a kind of camaraderie in that.

And, and that in itself being its own force field that connecting all of those dots, that constellation feels really powerful.

Lisa: I feel that that's what we are doing with this podcast.

Courtney: I hope so. I hope so. It's, reminding, [00:14:30] yeah, reminding people of the reward in creative risk taking and pushing, moving, dancing, swimming against the cultural tide, and the cultural norm.

And it feels alone. It feels utterly overwhelming and often impossible. But with that alignment and with that community, it really feels like we could actually do something. shift culture here. And that's not, just about [00:15:00] gender or whose stories get to be told. That's shifting culture, you know, in all of its aspects, whether it's capitalism, neoliberalism, misogyny, racism, it's all possible with the force of an energized community.

Lisa: Well, I feel like you do that extremely well, creating an energised community.

And you live well, you find beautiful places to live, you have incredibly high quality  [00:15:30] relationships and you live a beautiful life and anyone who's listened to the podcast will be aware of the deep and respectful relationships that you have with people, many of whom you've worked with, but also have an enduring friendship with. How do you balance writing, which is very solitary, with collaborative work, which you're also clearly drawn to do? And if you had to choose, which one would it be? 

Courtney: I can't do one without the other. I guess I feel that if I had to choose, I would choose my own [00:16:00] work. because it's a friction that needs to be satisfied by doing. You know, that inherent urge or itch to make something.

I don't think I would be able to live with myself.

Lisa: Wow.

Courtney: If I didn't do that, I think I would be a really unhappy person. Collaborative work feels like the cherry on top, the great reward of getting out of your comfort zone, and letting some of those, what felt like [00:16:30] hard boundaries sometimes dissolve for something new and more interesting to emerge. So, yeah, in Ngukurr especially, I got to collaborate with extraordinarily gifted artists and storytellers and cultural men and women. In a way that actually significantly changed me. you know, in terms of the culture I'm from and the literature I've taken in and the films that I love, [00:17:00] well, they all seem to emphasize this idea that you're born alone and you die alone. And that's a very depressing concept to me. And in the space of Ngukurr and that collaborative work, people I worked with come from an understanding that you're born connected and you die connected. And allowing that in, allowing that just to really take me over came with such a, an energy [00:17:30] and such a feeling of gratitude to, to be coached in that different way of thinking. And now that I've, had some time to really be with it and inhabit it. I see in like a daily way, how much better my life is for allowing that to be true. And I think part of a resistance when you come from an individualistic culture is that you feel like people should be responsible for [00:18:00] themselves and so solve their own problems and we need boundaries to be healthy and, all of that.

And if you acknowledge your connection to other people, it comes with this impossible weight of responsibility. But there's a, a joy in the responsibility as well. there's a reciprocity, I think, that's this incredible cultural value, of Indigenous culture in Australia, of giving a [00:18:30] generosity that takes a long view.

You know, and doesn't expect to necessarily receive the next day but given in faith that, that same generosity will be returned. And I find that so humbling and, yeah, it, it really floors me actually.

Lisa: Is it mainly a mindset, or is it, actions, or?

Courtney: It's in everything. It's truly, truly in everything.

I mean, I [00:19:00] feel like I'm getting into territory of, you know, I'm a white woman who, was brought up in an Irish Catholic household and, kind of working class family. They were my, you know, early kind of shape forming influences and I'm not an Indigenous person, so I can't imagine what it is to walk on this country as an Indigenous person, but I can walk alongside an Indigenous person and feel some of that [00:19:30] connection through them and through their storytelling and their generosity.

And how it feels is that time is not linear and Ancestors are present and influential and important. And I love that. I love that. And it's kind of an invitation to, well, it's to take that seriously to go, you know, even in thinking about going back to Ireland and doing [00:20:00] research for my second novel, I feel like my ancestors would be very pleased, you know,

Lisa: I'm sure they would.

Courtney: I'd be very pleased. And. Yeah, that gives me a great feeling of support for what will be difficult potentially in confronting work that, yeah, I'm not this lone person floating out in the ether on a straight line of time.

That we, if we're open to it, can feel the support [00:20:30] of our ancestors. So that's my experience of it and my understanding of it with, I guess, wanting to acknowledge my own limits in that of, of being able to understand it.

Lisa: Far out, I wanted to talk about vulnerability putting out work into the world. Charlotte Wood in our first series spoke about this so articulately in terms of our primal brain, the need to be part of a tribe and any difference or something that's going to put you on the edge of that tribe or outside of it is going to [00:21:00] mean you're vulnerable to be eaten by a lion.

You know, the fear of rejection can stop you from putting work out there, I guess. And I love our friend, Hattie Dalton spoke about when she made a feature film, said that when she was showing it to her family and friends and so forth, she felt like she, was, almost like saying here, here's my inner vagina, have a good look and let me know what you think. Is that what publishing a book feels like in any way?

Courtney: Goodness. I love that Hattie said that? But that's not, [00:21:30] that's not how it feels to me. what it feels like is, well, it's a process and the process is one of backing myself. And it doesn't end in the sense of, so right now, Hachette are publishing my book in Australia.

It will be on the shelves in August. My agent's, shopping it, to other regions. say 30 editors in the world currently have [00:22:00] a manuscript on their desk with Bird on the front cover. I know in the next few weeks and months, there's going to be a flurry of thanks, but no thanks, because that's just how it goes.

And hopefully within that, there'll be some resounding wows and yeses. So it's knowing that you can't move out into that space without rejection. That's just part of the deal I can't be in a place where [00:22:30] I'm Needing or seeking approval that that work has to have been done.

I need to be solid in it before it goes up.

So for example, a publisher in the U S was like, you know, great, great, great, but didn't love the ending. And I really was like, but the ending's great, you know, felt so firm and proud of the ending.

That was like, well, that's easy to let go of. So there's something about yeah, coming [00:23:00] back to the belief in the work in the way that I know what I've given it, I know where it's taken me. I know what I've sacrificed. I felt all of those feelings and the process of putting it out keeps bringing me back to backing myself and finding new, new ways to do that all the time.

Yeah.

Lisa: So a question, Courtney, that you often ask our interviewees is, who do you reach for when you're looking for inspiration?

Who [00:23:30] do you reach for? 

Courtney: for? Look, lately I've been reaching a lot for Vali my dog.

Lisa: And, and I feel like she's a really important creature to to talk about in how you be alone and, be with yourself. there's a certain point in the day where just has to happen and her paw will come off.

Um, literally onto my hand and she'll be like, enough now, enough, it's time to walk. And I'll be so, [00:24:00] you know, thinking I have to keep going and, and go of course that's exactly what we need to be doing.

And there's something about really spending time with non human creatures and finding relationship to open different sensory experiences of being in the forest and the pleasure she gets from sniffing things and, brings me back to a very grounded, grateful [00:24:30] self. I guess I can trip myself over sometimes with my ambition and wanting to fulfill kind of visions of things and to go, ah, the earth beneath us and the, you know, this place we're in and how to give that equal attention and respect.

Lisa: They do add another dimension, don't they?

Courtney: And you know, if you're not a dog person, there's been times in my life where I [00:25:00] haven't.

Had a dog and, you know, my, my life has still been rich and great. but I think if you know, you know, if you have experienced that, it's an inexplicable relationship. 

Lisa: The title of this podcast, Are You Still Working? I know your Nana Shirley used to ask you, are you still working? Because you don't wear a uniform or have a ute full of tools. All those indicators of profession aren't clear, which [00:25:30] clearly can anxiety in nanas.

Who want to see you, who just want to see you with a stable, secure, happy life. What advice would you have for people who want to take a creative career, but maybe don't want to stress out their Nanas?

Courtney: Um, so just thinking about Nana Shirley, we found out. Only a few months ago, my mum ran into someone she'd worked with at the telephone exchange in the 70s, [00:26:00] maybe, and Nan's nickname was Whirly Shirley Never Early, and she would race in with a fag coming out of her mouth and It took me all of this time to wonder about the work she did and what that looked like. and who she was in that and who she was to her peers.

Lisa: Whirly Shirley. 

Courtney: Whirly Shirley, never early. I love that. And what I feel regretful about was that she didn't understand my work and I didn't [00:26:30] understand her work. But I'm really Interested to know what that was like to listen, she was a telephonist. She listened to other people's conversations a lot, right?

The world of that. So I think the interest has to be mutual for a start. So that's something I think I'm learning late, you know, that the things that you do daily. how do we get to know that in each other, and then what I just expected her to know what my life was like, because I was calling myself a writer that she should implicitly understand [00:27:00] that.

So I think it's, Being mutual in that curiosity, with all love for, for Nana's. Yeah, that's what I would do differently. That was what I wish I'd done actually. Yeah. 

Lisa: Tell me about Bird. I can't wait to read it.

Courtney: So Bird is about, a, young woman who we meet in this present day in Darwin. And she, after a traumatic event, forgets the details of her present [00:27:30] life, but begins to remember a past life in the Himalayas.

In, a time she can't identify, but a long time ago. So it's a parallel story of her remembering her first life and trying to piece together her present life and really answer the question of how do you break repeating patterns that are awful is the crux of it.

Lisa: Patterns in herself or her relationships or?

Courtney: In [00:28:00] relationships, in events, in circumstances, in her lack of agency, in how young women are treated in society, in her seeking. and finding herself locked out of knowledge and institutions because she's a girl. 

Lisa: Are you also talking about intergenerational trauma?

Courtney: I am. It was a way to do that, without, you've named it. That's, that's what it is. Yeah. of how trauma travels down the [00:28:30] line and, you know, creates ripples and tsunamis even in, in the present. 

Lisa: You talk about surprises in your work. What was one of the surprises that came out as you were writing this?

Courtney: So years ago I saw a painting by Georgia O'Keeffe called Evening Star.

It's this beautiful, beautiful watercolour and she did many, many versions of it.

And I saw that painting and I responded so physically to it. was like I'd seen the structure of this novel. [00:29:00] And in seeing that I knew, because it existed in the world and it was just this thing of beauty, allowed myself to believe. It was possible to write a book that matched that structure. So for a long time, that image was the guide in terms of how I could tell this story in terms of layers of time.

I knew the story was one of connection and I knew it was about Bird. And the people, in both [00:29:30] lifetimes that had been circling her, the same relationships. But without spoiling it, there's a lot that happened that was utterly surprising to me. That, yeah, I would say, came from Bird.

Lisa: And Bird is the name of the main character?

Courtney: Bird is the name of the main character, yeah. She's got spirit, you know, so I love her for that.

Lisa: As do you, Courtney Collins. As do you. It's an honour and a joy [00:30:00] to be your friend and collaborator.

And to bring all the insight and life lessons about how to live creatively and send that out to an audience is magic and I just love the notion now that it's a constellation. It's a constellation. It's fantastic. Thank you.

Courtney: Thank you, Lisa Madden. 

Lisa: This has been the final episode of season two of, Are You Still Working?! Follow us on Instagram @areyoustillworkingpodcast or drop us a line if there's anyone you'd like us to interview for the next season of Are You Still [00:30:30] Working? Till next time.