Sarah Lambert - Writer and showrunner

Sarah Lambert is a writer, director, producer and showrunner, creating television series' such as The Lost Flowers of Alice Hart, The Messenger, Lambs of God and many more. 

In this episode Sarah talks about how as a child, she always preferred the imagined world to reality, how she'll never feel able to rest on her laurels (no matter how successful she is or how many projects she has on the go), why she wasn't satisfied being 'just' a writer, and why she loves them but doesn't think she should be the one to make documentaries.

Transcript

Are You Still Working?!
Series 2, Episode 3 - Sarah Lambert
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[00:00:00] 



Courtney: Hello gorgeous listeners. Welcome to Are You Still Working?! How to take your creative ideas seriously. I'm Courtney Collins and today I'm talking to Sarah Lambert. Sarah Lambert is an Australian writer, director and producer who mainly works in television. You've likely seen her work such as the most recent top rating series, The Lost Flowers of [00:00:30] Alice Hart, based on the novel

of the same name by one of our previous guests Holly Ringland. Sarah has brought characters and moments to television that have broken tidy limits and taken audiences to the most unlikely places.

Three nuns on an island in Lambs of God, one of my all time favourites. Wherever she takes her audience, Sarah creates characters that always feel unique and true, We spoke on Gadigal and [00:01:00] Wangal country in Sydney's inner west Sarah Lambert. We ask all of our guests this question and we've never had the same answer, but I would really love to know. 

How did you learn to take your creative ideas seriously?

Sarah: That is a very interesting question. I think the truth of this would probably come back to ever since I was a very little girl, I had a very big imagination and I would pretty much [00:01:30] disappear into it.

You know, I think my life and the household I grew up in was fairly complicated, and a lot was going on. was brought up by a single Mum and there was four of us. and I fell in love with books, but then I would also just sort of, disappear into my imagination and my imagination was so strong and the world was so strong and the characters in that world was so strong that I actually hated reality.

I hated having to go to school because it would interrupt my other world that I lived in [00:02:00] which was far more interesting and exciting and I really, really struggled, with reality. 

I'd just lie all the time, make all these stories up 24 seven as a child. And I was very, very fortunate to have a teacher at some point say to me, you know, these stories that you, you keep saying - if you, write it down and you make it into an actual story,

then you won't get into trouble, you can do that. And it really changed things for me [00:02:30] because it was the first time I realized that this big imagination that I had, this other world that I had, all the kind of complications that were going on there and everything that I imagined, I started to be able to write down or tell people a story.

And it made me realize that there was power in stories. And that once I wrote it down, or told it to people, that you could really hold an audience

and, and that made me take myself quite sort of seriously, I think. So I guess it starts there. But also, I have a fairly different journey [00:03:00] to a lot of people. I mean, I started as a child actor. So I grew up in the business and my sister was an actress in a film called Picnic at Hanging Rock and she played Miranda.

And out of that lots of people would sort of come to our house and it was sort of really early days of the Australian film industry and they'd be looking for a child actor, you know, to sort of play somebody's, kid or, they need somebody on radio and so they just grabbed Lambert's younger sister.

So I ended up doing Newsfront when I was seven. And then I went to [00:03:30] Melbourne on my own and did Against the Wind when I was 8 years old 

I remember I put lipstick on because I thought it made me look older on the plane.

I had no idea that I'd actually have to stay in a hotel by myself and all of that. Cried my eyes out in the Windsor Hotel until finally my sister came down to spend time with me. But I always worked and I had a huge work ethic and even back then after my mother passed away she had kept all these scripts from my childhood, so I grew up doing plays and films and television, and I would write all over [00:04:00] the scripts, like no child would ever say this.

This terrible dialogue, this this plot does not make sense, and there's just this entire diatribe of this sort of eight year old, nine year old brain, breaking down story and trying to write new things.

So I did lots of things for the ABC and Scales of Justice and then I was in A Country Practice for about three years when I was in high school and I played Sandy Crosby, the bad girl of Burrigan, which was an amazing time actually.

I met some wonderful, wonderful people who I'm still very [00:04:30] close to then I did Heartbreak High, the first season playing Christina Milano. 

So I've always taken myself as a creative person seriously, and I think even though it's been hard, I've never thought of doing anything else.

I was just, this is my life. I have something to say. I want to say things. I want to live in this world of imagination and I want to tell stories. That's all I've ever wanted to do. [00:05:00] And I've never compromised on that. You know, and it's meant a very, very hard life, but also a kind of amazing journey, I think.

Courtney: Hmm. In terms of what has made that hard, from observing your career at the moment, there seems to be flourishing, your work is being rewarded and applauded and being seen by, you know, millions of people. When you reflect on what has been difficult about your career. Does it diminish the pain somewhat? [00:05:30]  

Sarah: Yeah, I mean, I think I've actually been incredibly fortunate even though I say it's been painful. I think it is just that thing of being a freelancer your whole life, you know, when you don't have a weekly paycheck. Each job, each show that you try and get up, that you write and then try to sell and then, take it through to production

becomes your entire life, you know, that obsession and sort of working so hard on that particular project. 

And I think what's been interesting is that you have to have so many balls in the air, [00:06:00] like you develop so many different things and you work all the time, maybe on six, seven, eight, nine projects, just trying to kind of get some movement.

So it is nonstop. it's seven days a week. It's always working insane hours trying to kind of move the dial on anything to sort of get it across the line. And you know, in the last 10 years for me, things have got a lot easier. You know, I've been in back to back production for six years and, you know, just on one series after the other.

And that's been really, really wonderful. 

At one point I had 10 shows in [00:06:30] development in that period of time where I was just moving between shows on set, you know, writing in post production, just moving constantly between those worlds. And it was brilliant. It has been brilliant, but it has been completely overwhelming and an incredible ride. it's really lovely to be able to get things made that you are so passionate about and that you care about.

But then there's always this voice in the back of your head going, when's it going to stop? When's it going to get hard again? Cause it really is peaks and troughs [00:07:00] and you just have to sort of ride it out,

you know, I never get to the point where I think, Oh, it's going to be like this forever. There's always this deep kind of fear, I think, and that sort of stays with you always of, you know, what is next?

What's going to happen? And will I be able to keep going?

Will I continue to be able to do what it is that I want to do? 

Courtney: A few years ago, I started going to some women only film makery networky events with this very burning question of I identify as a writer, but I also [00:07:30] had begun working as a producer in Southeast Arnhem Land. And, riding out this kind boom and bust experience, my question for a very senior producer who was about to retire actually was, how did you keep going?

What did you do between projects, between shows? How did you keep up? Literally, how did you keep afloat? And I really expected her to kind of impart some practical and urgent wisdom. And she said, unfortunately, she said, [00:08:00] you marry a rich husband.

She I was like, yeah. Well, I failed. I failed on that count.

Do you have a better answer to that? Wow. 

Sarah: I mean, I, I think that's the thing, isn't it? I mean, I don't come from 
money, I have to work. you know, I have to work really hard to support my family. and I have the world's most amazing partner, and he is a great father, [00:08:30] and he, he has been so generous to me in the sense that you know, when I got pregnant with my son, it was a bit of a surprise, and there were lots of things on the cards, and I was thinking, you know, my career was kind of taking off, and I didn't know what to do.

And he said, I'll sell my business and become a stay at home dad. And he did it. And that was extraordinary to me. And so, on the one hand, it's this incredible thing because you [00:09:00] do need somebody just to kind of be there to do all that stuff of taking care of you and, you know, feeding you and doing all the stuff, all the stuff that kids bring.

And he is incredible at it, and he's so supportive of me, and he's a handy man and he, he's just the most generous and wonderful person, but he has always wanted me just to shine you know, he's always backed me, the fact that he backs me and he knows I'm very ambitious and that [00:09:30] he isn't particularly. 

He loves doing the stuff, he does, and he's really good at it. 

I think that kind of support is incredible, you know, and I feel incredibly fortunate that I have it. The downside of it is that you have, you know, one major income to support four people, which means that that pressure to just always work, 

this is how it works, I only bought a house last year for the first time in my life. I've never owned a house. I don't come from my family that owned a house. We just never owned anything. we rented our whole lives, but [00:10:00] now there's this insane mortgage.

And I think I'm going to be working for the rest of my life you know, until I, have my last breath, I'll probably be having to pay this damn thing off. I think that's the thing is, there is no easy solution to this. 

Every couple of years I go, I should just quit. Like, I should just become a teacher and I should get a real job and I should go into, you know, like I I, I get these panic moments sometimes and I think this is just too hard.

You know, like it's so hard to keep this level of work up. Cause it's, it's a lot. there are months on end [00:10:30] where I work seven days a week and I don't get home till like 1am and, and I work in three time zones, you know, in England and Australia and America and it just feels sometimes crazy.

But then I think, you know, what a privilege it is that I get to work, you know, that I get to make things and while that's still going on, I've just got to do it. So yeah, I don't think there's an easy way. I mean, you know, I've never wanted to marry somebody for money and I never wanted to, 

you know, and I don't come from money but I think that makes me more [00:11:00] driven.

And I think I've got more to say because of it. all the writers I admire come from something where they, you know, they're driven because they write and they make it work because they have to, 

It's a hell of a lot of resilience. I mean, you just have to keep, putting one foot in front of the other and just working your guts out. I mean, that's that's the bottom line, I'm afraid.

Courtney: I accept the wisdom and the truth. 

Sarah: It's awful I mean, I wish it was, I wish it was different, that you you know, there was some kind of free and easy ride, but it just isn't not, 

[00:11:30] 

Courtney: It's a better answer.

It's a better answer. And it's one that inspires me and makes me feel like beating my chest, because we can work and we know how to work and we are driven to do that. 

When you say that you're on a deadline at the moment, and I know you've been writing all day, can you talk about what you've been working on? 

Sarah: I've got two shows that are in funded development with, a streamer. One is original and so they commissioned two seasons of that.

So that's been wonderful.to go back [00:12:00] to writing something new. original again. Not an adaptation. the other thing that I've gone back on today is an adaptation of The Eighth Life, which is by Nino Haratischwili. She's a Georgian writer. And The Eighth Life is an extraordinary, book. And I didn't even really know where Georgia was before I read the book and before I was offered this job and I didn't want to do it because I was like, I'm not Eastern European, this is not my history, this is not my voice.

And so I really fought for a long time. [00:12:30] I loved the book and I love her.But I was determined that I would go and find a, you know, a Georgian writer or maybe a Ukrainian writer And so I've been working with them and going to, Georgia and meeting Georgian writers and Georgian directors and, Eastern European writers and looking at ways to sort of bring everybody to adapt that series we all met in Berlin and, you know, working in multiple languages and just looking at how to do that particular series, which has been incredible, really [00:13:00] incredible.

And then I'm working on another original which is a real passion project for me. And it's something I've wanted to write for a really, really long time and I managed to get development money out of the U. S. and I'm working with this brilliant company in the UK on that. and it's a story about us again.

it, I always come back. It's kind of crazy. All these things are all women, you know, that got huge female casts. both The Eighth Life. It's about eight women across the sort of red century in Georgia and the fight for freedom and where are you free? [00:13:30] Starts in 1890 and goes to 2008 with The Last Invasion of Georgia by Russia and it's just the most extraordinary story. And this other thing that I've been working on is again another big female epic. And it's a revisionist, feminist, revenge fantasy. And I won't tell you anything about it. except to say that the tagline is, 

Courtney: Sold! Sold!

Sarah: The tagline of the series is You want me to be crazy?

I'll give you fucking crazy. 

So yeah, so I've been writing that and having a ball because [00:14:00] it's something that I've always wanted to say. and always wanted to do and it's really starting to come together now so I'm really hoping that will happen and then I've also got two other shows I'm writing, one for Stan and one, for another company in the US which I'll come back and shoot hopefully at the end of the year. So, yeah. 

Courtney: Wow. I'm so excited about that. wow. Yeah. what do you call yourself? Writer, producer, showrunner? Yeah.

Sarah: I'm a writer and a showrunner, I guess. But I sort of, it's an [00:14:30] interesting thing.

I just went to LA because Screen Australia and the Australian Writers Guild created this program called The Creators. And it was all about

sending Australian writer producers over to do the American showrunner program. And that was really, really interesting because U. S. showrunner model is so different to what we have here.

And it was sort of looking at how you can take some elements of that and bring them here and do sort of more of that. And that was really fascinating. I worked in New York for 12 years. [00:15:00] And I was a producer back then I produced documentaries and I, you know, made documentaries in a children's television series that was 65 parts.

So it's kind of nice to be able to bring all of those elements of what you kind of have done in the past and, and bring them together as a writer so that you can you know, be more creatively involved and hold the project really not just as a writer but all the way through production right to the last frame, you know, and the last mix and the last grade so that you're really, trying to hold the vision and, collaborate with people to make it the [00:15:30] best way possible.

Courtney: How does telling someone's stories through the medium of documentary compared to telling someone's story through the medium of fiction and what that can reveal about their humanity.

Sarah: Ah, that's an interesting question. I love documentaries. I genuinely love them. 

but having made them, what I found really difficult is you don't actually have control of the story, you can't shape it.

I want it to go in this direction and and human beings go and, sometimes the opposite and you don't get a great end, [00:16:00] like you've been following the story for years and then, you don't get the outcome that you wanted or you had hoped for that would be a better story.

You get the story that happens, you know, that's real life and that's both wondrous but incredibly frustrating at times, 

I think I learned that I was a better fiction writer and a better, storyteller in, dramatic terms than I am a documentary filmmaker.

Because I think my need to want it to work out the way I want it to work out is probably dangerous. So um, I had to [00:16:30] really learn to reign that side of my nature in. 

I have the utmost respect for documentary filmmakers and writers of nonfiction. I really do. I think that attention to detail and truth it's just extraordinary.

And I love it. But you know, I love making shit up.

you know, My mother used to always say, never let the truth get in the way of a good story. And I do like that. I like being able to play in the realms of

Making stuff up and making it work out the [00:17:00] way you want it to. I think I'm better suited to that, 

Courtney: What do you love about the show running model? 

Sarah: one of the hard things about being a writer in television and film is that like a novelist or any writer, you sort of have this time with the work, you know, where it's all yours, whether it's an adaptation or you're creating from scratch, there's this sort of joyous time when it's just, in your hands. 

in your head or you're in the writer's room with all these brilliant writers and you get to play and tear things apart and create [00:17:30] whole worlds and then you kind of give birth to these scripts you know you give birth to this world 

that's this sort of brilliant time of it.

And then you have to give it over, And it's different from, you know, giving it over to a publisher and then you're in direct relationship with your audience, Your words are going directly to all these heads of department who then have to come on and create what is on the page and help kind of create a vision.

you have to let it go. And it is a tremendously hard process, because what you have in your [00:18:00] mind and the way you've created it, you love it and you're so passionate about it and you've sold it, you've helped sell it to a network you know, everyone's bought into this vision, but you have to let it go because it has to go to the director who's going to bring their voice to it and and your production designer and your every single department is going to bring things to it.

And if you are just a writer. And you just hand it over, you have no control whatsoever. You just have to just trust that it's going to work out fine. And as a writer in the old days when I would work on different [00:18:30] episodes of television and you have your one meeting with the director and you'd sit down and it'd be your tone meeting.

It's called a tone meeting and you'd talk through all the things that you wished for and hoped for, and they would ask questions and then just go away and shoot it and you wouldn't never see it again until you watched it on the television. And no matter how great it was, I think it was rare that you'd ever see something you think, Oh wow, that's even better than I thought it could be.

You would always feel slightly like, Oh my God, what have they done to my work? And that's being horrible, but it is kind of how it feels. And I [00:19:00] think as you kind of progress through this industry, there's a certain point where you go, I can't do that anymore. I've loved this thing. even doing adaptations, you have a responsibility to the author and you've worked so hard to get all these things right.

So you really want to be able to be in there and hold the production. So really collaborate with your director and really kind of be there in all those meetings to really create one vision, 

one singular voice as much as possible. and I think that's, that's the kind of great thing [00:19:30] about being a show runner, like a good show runner is that you learn to collaborate and you learn to kind of all find this kind of way forward and get the best out of everybody bringing together something so that you're serving the same end that everyone's trying to tell the same story in the way that you kind of imagined it to be.

Courtney: When you do birth the story and there's nothing more you can do, what is that feedback for you in terms of.

Does it create space, real estate? a glowy kind of [00:20:00] feeling of giving everything you've got. what is that feeling? 

Sarah: such a strange process. I think anytime you kind of create something and put it out into the world, it's absolutely terrifying. It's like standing naked in front of people, isn't it? You know, the first time you actually deliver a script to other people, like, oh. Hmm.

It's awkward because it's the way you see the world, there is so much of yourself the way you write, where your focus is, the sort of, your eccentricity, it's all there.

people who know me and watch things like, oh yeah, that was a classic Sarah Lambert [00:20:30] moment, and make fun of me for that, And I love that, because they know me and they know what kind of, you know, my sensibility and certain things that can really see it in the writing or, you know, what's on screen.

But yeah, it's excruciatingly. I think there is a sort of sense of there's a sense of, there's a sense of joy of getting it out into the world. But then it's that weird thing is that it's not like making a movie where you can go and sit in the cinema with people and hear how they respond. Or, you know, if you're, if you're in the play.

And then you go and, sit in the [00:21:00] theater and, watch people's responses every night where it's this amazing live feedback. Or even with a, you with a book people respond directly to you. The most joy I've ever had is is when we've been able to have those public screenings where with Lambs of God we went to Series Mania and so we saw it with a French audience first, like such an incredible thing and all these different cinemas and they played it.

And you're trying to figure out, you know, whether the translation is working and whether people are going to, you know, love it or hate it. And And then for the Sydney Film [00:21:30] Festival, they played all four episodes of the entire series and sort of locked everyone in. And it was amazing.

It was one of the most joyous experiences because, they were such an extraordinary audience. And it was for me, like you heard, gasping or laughing. And then at one point they were all applauded actually on the part where Carla tells this menstrual story, which was just all about blood.

And then all these people started cheering and clapping. And I was like, wow, that, that will never, ever happen to me again. And that was absolute joy because you're like, okay, [00:22:00] for some people this really, really worked. And that felt amazing. then you get these incredible moments, whether it was, you know, with love child Or even with Lost Flowers of Alice Hart, where it, hits people or touches people and people write to you and tell you extraordinary things. And I think then,

I feel like you know, my work is done. you know, like I feel really

Thrilled about that. And then I just always, I have two days when I, when I deliver anything where I'm okay. And then, then I just think the sky is falling,

[00:22:30] and I'll never work again. And everything, you know, I always, I'm always convinced that I have that. I don't know. Like maybe it's a freelancer's fear, but I always think no matter how good something is, I'm always convinced I'm never going to work again.

So, maybe that's what keeps me on my toes, so that I never stop trying really, really hard because, I'm always terrified.

Courtney: Never resting on your laurels, Sarah. 

Sarah: No, I will never rest on my laurels. I'm still learning, like I'm still, learning.

every single job I learned [00:23:00] so, so much. There's never a moment where I think, oh yeah, I can find this in, I know everything. 

It's like learning a whole new world. What's the language of this world? You know, how do these people talk? How does this world look? what's the best way into this story? It's always new and it's always terrifying and kind of exciting too because you have to learn it all again. 

Courtney: the way that you approach adaptation and thinking of three much loved novels that you've adapted. So Holly Ringland's Lost Flowers of Alice [00:23:30] Hart, Marcus Zusak's The Messenger, Marele Day's

The Lambs of God. in the fact that the world has been well furnished, does that allow you to take more risks where do you pivot from with such a well furnished world?

Sarah: It's an interesting question. they all are so different. Mm. I'm so grateful that I got to work on those. What's really tricky about adaptations is, the reason that you want to do them is that you love them. [00:24:00]  You know, each one I have loved for very, very different reasons.

And I'm, you know, I have great relationships with all three writers. 

Lambs of God is probably best described as three nuns who live on this remote island

sort of forgotten in time, and there's an older nun, a middle aged nun, and a young girl and a priest arrives on the island expecting there to be no one sort of left in this monastery that's sort of been lost to time. when the nuns realize that the man has come to take their home, they trap him on the [00:24:30] island and try to convert him to their ways. It's Misery meets nuns, basically. but a brilliant, brilliant story by Marele Day,

You know, I, met Marele And when I first read it, I thought, how the hell do you do this book? Like it's so out there and different and wondrous. there was such great characters but it was not an easy adaptation to do. 

And she was great in the sense that she was just so generous. She only came to the writer's room once. And she just said, you know, 

They can't kill [00:25:00] anybody.

You can do anything else, but they just can't kill anybody. You know, and and so that was fine. And then talking to her years later, she says, Oh, you know, there'd be things that. I didn't know about her, that somehow I had drawn out of that book, which were quite personal to her, but aren't in the book. And she said, how did you know? And I was like, I didn't,

And it's been the same on pretty much everything. Lost Flowers of Alice Hart, I loved so much and I wanted to do it really badly.

It's a beautiful adaptation of Holly Ringland's novel of the same name. And it [00:25:30] really is about a young girl who dreams about setting her father on fire hoping that he might sort of change and the worst of him might be kind of burnt away and the best of him might arise out of the ashes.

And you soon realise that she's living in this very kind of complicated world

You know, when Holly and I met, it was like a meeting of minds, and we'd, become very, very good friends. And I felt this tremendous responsibility to get that right, Cause it's so well loved, but what was great about Holly is she's so smart, as she understood that. She could see

[00:26:00] You have to restructure things and bring certain characters up front and extend other characters journeys.

Holly and I actually traveled together through the desert. We went away on this trip together and we on this massive car journey across the desert and had this crazy time together before I went into the writer's room.

And so I kind of just tried to hold that, who I know her to be and what I know that story comes from. I think if you can hold that, that voice, you know, and that initial feeling, you can kind of go anywhere.

And then The Messenger is about [00:26:30] four friends, and there's Ed a no hoper taxi driver, and they play cards these four friends in this small town, and that's what they sort of live for, 

And one day they're at the local liquor barn, and there's a robbery, and they, foil the robbery and

He becomes the hero of the moment, and then playing cards start appearing in his mailbox. With addresses and times, and he has to figure out what he has to do. 

based on a novel by Marcus Suzak, The Messenger for him was something he'd written when he was, it was [00:27:00] early in his career. and there are things he would have done differently and he was brilliant. He's the most 

generous, kind, wondrous man. And he came to the early plotting rooms and was just like, Oh, just throw it on its head. Be brave.

Like, this one thing was be brave. And you know, we changed a character from a male character to Richie as a female. And did a massive rewrite on her and really wanted to kind of give that character a big story. And he just loved that.

But again, we always tried to stay true to his [00:27:30] voice and what it was really about for him and what was really important. And so I guess It's like almost sort of imbibing them, 

if you hold a voice and you hold the integrity of that piece of work and what it's really saying, Then you can kind of expand with confidence. But if you're not respecting the work, if you're not respecting that voice and what it's really about, and you're just trying to tinker with it because you think you're cleverer and all of that, that's when I think you can get into real trouble.

Courtney: It's really an extraordinary process 
is there anything that particularly comes to [00:28:00] mind as a, another passion or hobby that has taught you about writing or taught you how to do that work that you've just described? 

Sarah: Oh gosh, I don't have very much of a life. I'm sorry, I wish I could say that better. I have two kids. They are everything to me. And so anything that takes me away from them has to be worthwhile. So I think once I had children, I became a better writer, everyone said, you know, your career will be over.

But for me it was sort of [00:28:30] opposite so it really, really honed me to my work ethic and it also made making choices about the kind of work I do really, really clear.

I've had a big life, when my grandmother was alive, she grew up, In the same town, she was an extraordinary person. And she worked her ass off her whole life. 
But she never got to travel, she never got to do all these things. She said, I believe in reincarnation because you keep reincarnating yourselves. You've had so many lives like in one lifetime, like all the lives that we have.

Because, you go and work in different [00:29:00] countries, the different jobs you've done. as much as I say I've been a writer my whole life, I've been an actor, I've been a director, I've been a producer. I used to edit commercials, I used to edit music video clips, I ran a company. My main client was the UN so we made films in Sierra Leone and Liberia and Kenya and Malawi and Syria and Jordan and I went and did those jobs and I made a film about the religious rights influence about the Bush administration and I'm a very political person, I care passionately about [00:29:30] things.

I love going and spending time and having experiences that are outside of my world. I don't know, you become obsessed and you learn so much and I love that. So I guess, I try to actually live a life.

I try to be in my community with my kids. I spend a lot of time in my park walking my dog and talking to people and listening to them and listening to their stories because they're all so fascinating. People's lives are so extraordinary. And I love that. 

And there is nothing better for me than to go somewhere and meet some random [00:30:00] person and listen to their story.

And everybody has a story, behind every closed door, there's an extraordinary story. and you just have to listen. So yeah, I'm deeply curious about us and why we are the way we are and and why is the world the way it is. 

So yeah, I think that's one of my favorite things is to travel.

I love traveling and I love meeting people and, and seeing things where I'm completely out of my depth and I know nothing and asking a hell of a lot of questions until I figure out you know, just get a [00:30:30] sense of how it is there. I mean, that, that's just heaven to me is just to learn about other people and other cultures and everything else about the world I think that's the great privilege of life is to be able to do that.

Courtney: That is an extraordinary and beautiful answer. I feel expanded.

Thank you for sharing your big, beautiful life. I've learned so much. I can't wait for people to hear you. 

Oh, Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Are You Still Working? is an independently produced [00:31:00] podcast by me, Courtney Collins, and Lisa Madden. If there's an artist you'd like us to interview, do let us know through Instagram at are you still working podcast. We'd also love to hear from you if any episodes have inspired your own projects.

Till next time.