Karen Rogers - Multidisciplinary artist

Artist and author Karen Rogers is a Ngalakan woman from Ngukurr, a remote community in southeast Arnhem Land in the Northern Territory. Her artwork comes from cultural knowledge and her feelings for the land. She studied visual art at Batchelor Institute.

Karen works across textiles, glass, painting, and animation. Wanmari, written and illustrated by Karen and directed by Jake Duczynski, was a finalist in the NATSIA Awards. Karen's also an author of a picture book called Main Abija about her grandfather.

In this episode, Karen talks about how her feelings for country flow into her work, how following story leads her to paint, and the cultural law she is both bound by and nourished by.

We HEART Karen Rogers.

Transcript

Karen Rodgers - Edit
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Courtney: [00:00:00] Hello, gorgeous listeners. Welcome to, Are You Still Working? How to take your creative ideas seriously. I'm Courtney Collins, and this is episode eight, the season one finale, an interview with artist Karen Rogers. Karen Rodgers is a Ngalakhan woman from Ngukurr, a remote community in Southeast Arnhem Land in the Northern Territory.

Her artwork comes from cultural knowledge. And her feelings for the land. She studied visual art at Batchelor Institute, and she works across textiles, glass, painting and animation.

Karen's also an author of a picture book called Main Abija, about her grandfather. Today we are talking in Naarm, Melbourne, on the traditional lands of the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung peoples. For listeners who are Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander, please be advised that this episode does contain the names of Aboriginal people who are [00:01:00] deceased.

Karen Rogers. So happy to be sitting here together today. can you tell me, how did you travel from... Ngukurr to Melbourne. What was the journey?

Karen: The journey was really long, cause you gotta catch the bus at 8 o'clock. arrive in Darwin at 8pm, and I had to get a red eye flight, so I hanged around in Darwin till about 12 to catch my flight down. Had a stopover at Sydney and got in here about 8 , then lost the case, but got it back now.

Courtney: So you're warm enough now. Yeah. Because what temperature was it in Ngukurr when you left?

Karen: Really hot and sweaty

Courtney: it's about twelve degrees in, Naarm now. Tell me what brings you down here this time?

Karen: Um, I came for an exhibition. And also I'm doing a residency yeah, printing with Sean.

Courtney: Sean Smith? From the Brunswick Street Gallery 

Karen:  Yeah, Brunswick Street

Courtney: Tell me about the exhibition, because you co curated it, didn't you?

Karen: It was all works from the Ngukurr Arts Centre artists. So there was some works [00:02:00] from Wally Wilfred, Jill Daniels, Gwyneth Blitner and myself. And Wayne Bengali, another person I can't call, AJ. So it was all artists from Ngukurr coming in together. took us a while because we got to get ready for Darwin Art Fair and then we
had to get ready for the show here in Brunswick, so it took us a couple of months to get it all together. And with Sean's help,, yeah, it come out good.

Courtney: Can you tell me about the title of the exhibition, Colour on Country?

Karen: I use that color on country because the artists at Ngukurr love using bright colors.

Courtney: Are there any particular colours that you're famous for? 

Karen: Oh, I use a lot of colour. Big mob, yeah. You'll know if you go see the exhibition. , before I used to paint my Toyota background in brown and a little bit of red.
But now I use more colours in the background. When the season changes out there, you know, It brings out different colors of flowers, and earth like, it's got black, it's got red, [00:03:00] it's got green. To me seeing pink flowers and wild bush, that's why, I don't know, it's just everybody loves to use the colors.

Courtney: Do you think that comes from the painters before? 

Karen: Yeah, it does come from the old artists of Ngukurr, like Amy Johnson. Gertie, Huddleston.  How we use it, different way from the old artists. I think it's How we feel about the landscape, we like the different theme it gives every season, every day, you know.

Courtney: What's your favourite season out in Ngukurr? 

Karen: It when it's cold weather, because that's the time we get blackberries. That's the only time of the year. And I like when it starts to rain. all of a sudden it changes from cold, hot, raining, and it's from black grasses and things, you see more green and new growth. Right now Rain is starting to come in and that's the right time to go fish for bull shark down the river. And then you get this nice fragrance of those flowers that tells you it's ready for [00:04:00] that fishing day now. You can smell them too, you can smell them in the air, that flower so sometimes the flowers tell us what time but the weather do them tell us, as soon as it's starting to rain, come and we'll get, cause they'll be rich in, really rich in eating the sharks, bull sharks.

They come in from the salt water cause the the Roper River get brackish then. So they'll come in. 

Courtney: Do you fish for bull shark?

Karen: Sometimes.  There's one family who catch 13, they'll give it out. To share the whole community. We wash the shark first and cut off the head, because we don't need the head. Cut it into a square, the meat, then boil it up. Then we gotta clean it. Just take all the meat out, put it in the dish, just the meat part. Then we squeeze them. We get something to squeeze the excess water from the shark. When that's done, we fry the fat. Then mix it up. Some people like it, some people like it. Too fatty for them, it's too rich. But it's really nice. Some of them mix it up with onion or curry.

Courtney: That's the way I've had it, with the onion. Yeah,

Karen: then they make a ball [00:05:00] and give it to kids. One little ball each.

Courtney: When you started painting and thinking about all of those, great women painters who went before,

Karen: Did it put you off in any way because they're quite famous, aren't they? And quite celebrated. Nah.  It wasn't intimidating to me, actually I felt proud felt, really proud of them. I went to one of the hotels in Darwin when I came back from Adelaide - Ridges, in Darwin. As soon as I walked out, I saw Betty Roberts. I couldn't believe it. When I see these old people's paintings, I'm very proud, really proud of them. That's my feeling, not intimidating but proud. Proud of them.

Courtney: I think that will be how your children and your grandchildren feel when they see your work in the galleries.

Karen: cause Junior just... Mum, I found your painting here at Palmerston Hospital, because one of my Toyotas painting at Palmerston hospital And there's a owl print at Royal Darwin Hospital at the emergency. I was showing my cousin this, [00:06:00] that's mine there.

Courtney: so when you're turning up every day to paint do you know what you're going to paint before you get there? 

Karen: No. Sometimes my canvas can be sitting there, and I'll be thinking about what to paint, sometimes I'll get a pencil, I'll start writing a story about it first in Kriol.
And through that story I'll start painting. Sometimes it'll just come off my head, so I don't need to imagine it, I'll just go straight on the painting. But especially if I'm telling a story, if it's just an ordinary Toyota, one Toyota, just a small one, I'll just go and paint.
But if it's a big one and I want to do a storyline, I'll write it down sometimes. And paint after. I like to follow the stories 

Courtney: How would you describe your painting style? 

Karen: Well, At Ngukurr, everybody's got different styles. You've got the Wagilak model up using the rarrk, we call it the rarrk. 

Courtney: So That's the lines...

Karen: The line style. Yeah. But I think the line style was in Ngukurr long time ago, might be after the missionary, the old, even the old people, [00:07:00] they painted completely different. So you got Gweneth, she loves painting flowers and her painting looks similar to Maureen. Like 

Courtney: Maureen Thomson?

Karen: little bit of similarity, but different. And then Jill, she loves, when she does landscape and stuff, cause Jill's sister was Amy Johnson, so she got a little bit of style there, but now she's more, using more of them colors. That's one thing about Ngukurr Arts, I think everybody got their own different style, but using more colours in their style. I don't know why, but that's how we are.

If you go up top and you'll just see the crosshatch. If you go centre, you'll see dot painting. Everybody got their own different style.

Courtney: And how would you describe your style?

Karen: Me, I like more like painting for memories. 
I'm more modern now because I studied art, see. I like splashing artwork,
If you see some of my work, I'll be like splashing paint, and then drawing on top of that.

Courtney: You move through so many different mediums.

Karen: True. I love doing [00:08:00] it, actually. 

Courtney: when you're moving from say, glass to metal or to painting or printmaking, it seems like you're confident to try anything. It looks really fearless. 

Karen: yeah. Yeah, that's how it feels. I I'm really confident in doing a lot of things. You know, Once I like to do that thing, I'll just go for it. Art is something that I love doing.
It relaxes me and everything. They wanted me to be the manager but I said, nah, I'd rather be an artist than being the manager of the Ngukurr Arts Centre. I love challenging myself sometimes. Like doing different style of artwork. I did glass work in 2017, although we don't do glass at home, but I wanted to do it, so I had a one month residency in Canberra, and I had another residency with Brunswick Street Gallery with Sean Smith couple of years back, doing printing on lino, but this week I'm doing metal etching. I think. 

Courtney: Can I. ask you about the time ;when you weren't being an artist before you were [00:09:00] working I think at the council?

Karen: I used to be a payroll officer for the Yugulmunga council. I used to do pays for everybody in the community. And I became an artist at the age of 44. After I got sick and had... Blood pressure and diabetes and grandma passed away.

I used to remember my grandma paint, but I never seen her painting.

Then I decided to study up at Bachelor

In Visual Arts. First time I went on the internet I found my grandma's painting. And it was of flowers and... 

And actually that painting is here in the gallery, here in Melbourne . somewhere. The first flower painting I did looked exactly like my grandma, but mine had stems and she didn't have stems on hers.

Courtney: Can we say her name?

Karen: My grandma was Eva Rogers. After remembering that, then I got inspired from her sisters, because all of Eva Rogers sisters are all famous artists, like Gertie Huddleston, Angelina George, Dinah Garadji, Betty Roberts. They were known as the Joshua girls, but they got their names from [00:10:00] their married names. That's inspired me more, so I want to do art more. And the first time I wrote my book,
and then I did the animation. This is how I come about doing my storylines. 

So I tell a story with my toyotas. And people love it and I write it in Kriol now. So I've been really famous for the toyota lately.

Courtney: What is it about the Toyota that you love and you keep coming back to?

Karen: Everybody says that, hey, Toyota dreaming to me.

But it's memories actually. It's real stories of memories. That we had out Bush, actually. I remember Uncle used to have a Toyota, and we used to go hunting, sometimes broke down, sometimes we got bogged. And they're mostly memories, that's why I love drawing Toyotas for memories, and even seeing other people when they go out Bush, you know. because, you need a four wheel drive, and the Troopy is the best thing to take a heap of family, because you've got a big family. A Troopy you got fit in 11 or 12 people in the car, so you can go big family out [00:11:00] fishing.

But mostly the Toyota I've been drawing is memories from my childhood. 

Courtney: There's some work that I've seen of yours where you paint that toyota and then you have Footsteps underneath it. 

Karen: Yes, yeah, it's there too in the exhibition, one of them, yeah.

Courtney: Can you talk to me about, that story?

Karen: That painting was of canoes, and then foot tracks, and old huts. And then houses, and then Toyotas. I would call it long time today, so long ago till today. It's a story about history, about our ancestors. How they walked. They slept in huts. They sailed by canoe. But nowadays we live in the house and we have Toyotas. Although those things have changed, but We still do what our ancesters to go out bush, follow different seasons for bush tucker and stuff, and we still teach our kids. So no matter how things change, our culture is still there, you know. 

The feeling of that painting is, though things have changed, our culture [00:12:00] is still strong. We still live off the land. 

Courtney: We met about eight years ago when my partner Jude took the job managing Ngukurr Arts Centre. And one of the first trips I took with you, I think it was into Darwin, and we started talking about our grandfathers, who were both very important people to us. And you... told me how he grew you up and so many of the things that he taught you.

Karen: Can you tell me about how, your grandfather inspired you to write your first picture book, mine, Abija my grandfather. Firstly, yeah, the first time I was talking about it, it was the sad memories of my granddad. And I never told my family about how I felt it's been years and years I had it all clogged up in me. Instead of writing a sad story, I wanted to contribute this book to my family, like telling them how I felt. So I decided to write memories of my Grandad. How important, [00:13:00] how inspired I was about him. Talked to me about culture and everything, you know, he used to tell me which country this is. He showed me how to tie a hook on a fishing line, how to find a sugar bag. Grandpa would sing a song in language and then explain it to me in Kriol and writing that book, although I was hurt, because I never went to his funeral, and I wanted to, to let my family know how I felt.

Karen: By doing that, instead of the sad way, I did it by memories of how he taught me and my children. Because my grandfather was very special. Because he's got a lot of grandkids from his sons. But he just had, only from his daughter, he just had myself, only girl, and two boys. 

Courtney: The story of why you couldn't be at his funeral, do you want to talk about that? 

Karen: The day he passed away, we wanted to get[00:14:00] funeral clothes for all of the family. So we went up to Darwin and the car broke down. And because community is very hard, keeping body in the morgue house. Sometimes you can have a big power failure and... They didn't want to keep the body so they went ahead and had it, and I don't know . I was just, I was very sad, angry and sad at the same time,

Courtney: the book, Main Abija, did something change for you?

Karen: Yes, because every time I used to talk with my granddad, I used to cry. I told people about it, and even writing the book, I cried, but lately it's been good. I think that book opened up my heart, and in a way, it's not about myself, it's about other people.

A lot of people don't get along with their granddad. And maybe my book can inspire them to get along with their granddad, no matter if they have the conflicts and everything. So that's the reason too, I reckon, I wanted to write that book. Not for myself, but for others as well.[00:15:00] to try and get along with their granddad, andremember those special moments with their grandfather.

Courtney: Mm-Hmm. 

Karen: After seeing my great grandson, my first great grandson born, as soon as I seen that, I started crying, I'm really proud of my eldest great grandson, yeah. When he grows up, he'll read my book and he'll see himself in that book. 

Oh, I also forgot too, in writing my book. I was inspired by Courtney. you. really let it out too. You made me let everything out after talking to you and writing that book 

Thank you.

Courtney: We've made some really cool things together, which I'm so proud of.

You've really taught me how to collaborate in a really open hearted way and share things very deeply

My, treasured memories about being in the art centre and watching you paint is when your husband, Ernest, sometimes sits beside you and plays guitar and you'll have one of your [00:16:00] grandchildren sitting beside you and you just stay in your zone. You just keep painting. You just stick, with it.

How do you do that?

Karen: I don't know, but once I'm into that art, I don't think about anything. I just think about what I gotta draw, what color I gotta use, what I gotta paint, if I'm gonna tell a good story about it. Sometimes I just like mucking around and, if I'm stressed and I do my artwork, actually it takes it all away.

Every problem I have at home, as soon as I go to the art centre it's just gone. I'm just in the world of painting, not thinking about anything. 

So many aspects of your work that I'd love to talk about because you move in so many different directions. Painting, printmaking, animation, glassworks. This week you're going to be learning to make prints with metal plates. Is there one medium that you love the most? Is there one style that you just really, it's for you?

Karen: I loved lino at first when I started at Bachelor, [00:17:00] lino was my favourite.
But then after doing painting and I get to like doing all sort of stuff, you know, especially like printing, printmaking, but because I'm getting old and I need young people to stand up and do the printing. But my favourite was lino at first. But then acrylic painting, I love doing acrylic painting using all those colours, it's beautiful. I've been doing a lot of digital as well, digital printing. The studio got burnt too, so we're still waiting for it to get fixed up. Then I'll start going back to printing again.

Courtney: Can you tell me about Nyingaya? Am I saying that the right way?

Karen: Nyingaya.

Courtney: Is that a Nalakhan word?

Karen: I don't know. I'm not too sure about what language. But it means like a feeling. it can be a bad feeling like, say if I want to do this thing and my Nyingaya say don't do it. So if I want to go walk that street. And in my thoughts, like a [00:18:00] feeling thoughts in your head, tell you not to go there. That's your nying'ay, I'm telling you, don't do that. And my nying'ay say I want to go fishing. Mostly it's something in your thoughts, how you're feeling. 

Courtney: So when you turn up every day to paint or to make something?

Karen: I have that good feeling to go every day to work
Because I don't think about anything else when I'm at work.

Courtney: was Roper Kriol your first language?

Karen: Before I used to use English. But then I decided, why don't I use, Kriol in my book. So nowadays, my stories come up with Kriol in the story of the painting, I write it underneath. So I write what's happening, like packing up or got bogged or got flat. But it's all written in Kriol. I prefer writing a book and thing in Kriol.

Courtney: I Tried to learn Kriol when I was in Ngukurr, but I was rubbish at it.
But there are words that I just love, and I think about often, bubbala, [00:19:00] when someone's hurt or feeling poorly or gardy, are there particular words that you think people outside of Ngukurr or who speak Roper Kriol should know?

Karen: Yuwai means yes. Najing means nothing. Bobala means feeling sorry. And gardi, GARDI!, oh no, something like that.

Courtney: And bagai.

Karen: Bagai means you're deadly, or

Courtney: You look great.

Karen: or how you walk, deadly walk. So bagai would mean a lot of things but meaning really. Like how you dress too, you can say, hey bagai. Seven tribes lives in Ngukurr. And every language is stored in the language center. So sometimes they teach them at school. Sometimes if you want to learn them, go to the language center.

You can learn that language. But I'm really sticking to Kriol now.

Courtney: Is the story of Kriol, Roper Kriol so when the mission was set up in the 20s, there were seven to nine language [00:20:00] groups

Karen: Yeah,

Courtney: who came in?

Karen: they weren't allowed to speak in language. So it, it come up with English language together now. it's called Kriol. 

Courtney: How many languages do you speak?

Karen: Not much really, only I know a little bit of Nunggubuyu. That's all, I think. That's my mother's language. When I was living in Numbulwar, I used to really understand, but now, because I'm back in the Kriol country, La Roper, I hardly speak any. I know a couple of words sometimes in my painting I would use Nunggubuyu word Like turtle, I would use Dalmarang. There's some words I know I'll use on my painting in Noongarbuyu. 

Courtney: Are there things that you are allowed to paint and things that you're not allowed to paint?

Karen: Nah, like, I can't paint like my dreamin My dreamin's kangaroo. So I'm not allowed to paint the kangaroo. I'm not even allowed to paint my country there, yellow water. Only thing I can paint is from my mum's side. My granddad, my mum and my grandmother's side. I [00:21:00] can paint a lot of dragonflies. I paint a lot of owls. And magpie geese. And I draw Wuyagiba all the time because, like a, we call it jingai
It's my mother's land, you know, and I like to, draw it, and my mother's totem, and my grandmother totem, yeah.

Only tell the outside story of those, especially when I draw a dragonfly, just tell stories that my grandmother's totem and they tell us that the dry and cold season is coming. I can't say any more after that because I'm not allowed to.

Courtney: Why are you allowed to paint your grandmother's totem? But not your totem?

Karen: It's our law. It's our cultural way. I know that other communities, other artists, they do that. They paint their own dreamings, but because it's our totem, we're not allowed to paint them. That's our law.

We've got to go by that cultural way.

Courtney: So you mentioned junggaiyi
Can you explain to me how the junggaiyi works, say, with the traditional owner and that leadership system in Ngukurr?[00:22:00] 

Karen: Yeah, we've got the jungaii, the dalnyin and the mingeringgi. So if my totem is Kangaroo, I'm the mingeringgi. That's my totem.

And the person who's the boss of the ceremony and that is the junggaiyi he's the head boss. And the granny side is the, dalnyin,

Dalnyin is the second boss. So junggaiyi dalnyin, they set up a boss of that mingeringgi. Mingeringgi is just the person who owns that totem. 

Courtney: So that's you.

Karen: that's me. And then junggaiyi would 

Courtney: Would that be Kolbong, Walter Rogers? Kolbong,

Karen: or Duncan mob from 

Urapunga. And the dalnyin would be like AJ and some Joshua family and so mixed dalnyin from gagu.

They call it gagu. Like grandmother, granny. Gagu means Grandmother from your mother's side. So if I'm talking about Abaji from my dad's side, it's Abaji. 
I wrote that book, I was talking about my mother's father. So it's my Abija. would [00:23:00] have talked about my dad's side, I would have called it Amari 

It is really complicated, yeah, really. It's, gotta take years and years to learn it sometimes. 

Our culture even just kinship, you know, it just goes around.

It doesn't say great, great, great, great. It just goes sister, brother, mommy, go around like that. So right now, I call my grandsons, for my eldest daughter and my kids, I call them grandson, I call them gagu. But my grandson's kid, I'd call auntie and daddy. And if them two had babies, I'd call them cousin. 

Courtney: As a white fella, and seeing that system, I've seen it drawn up, and I've had it explained in that beautiful way you've just explained it, It changes something in my brain when I hear it.

Karen: Say like you and Jude. They gave Jude skin Bulang. And they gave you Galijan.
Straight away I know what to call you. Jude would be my poison cousin. You would call me mummy. 

Courtney: It seems that always [00:24:00] everyone knows their place and their role in community. There's no one just wandering around not knowing, how they're in relationship to other people.

Karen: Yeah.

Courtney: I know you love relationship to other people.

Karen: Yeah. We've got two, we've got a big semi moieties called them Mata And then we've got four semi moieties , Mambali is the catfish dreamin Murungun is the king brown snake dreamin Budal, that's the kangaroo dreamin. And dreamin So everybody, every person is in these groups. 

Courtney: I know you love travelling. Do you ever imagine that you would like to live outside of Ngukurr?

Karen: I was thinking about it, but I would miss the fishing and stuff, hunting. 

Courtney: So with your artwork and your career, whenever I talk to you, you're just back from somewhere or about to go somewhere else or you've got a residency lined up.

What would you love to happen in the next few years for you [00:25:00] and your career?

Karen: Maybe end up outside of Australia.  I wouldn't mind going overseas, but I haven't got a passport.

But I would love to see that happen before I get too old, you know. yeah, that's what I like. I like to have, maybe Ngukurr Arts Centre have an exhibition out of Australia. That would be really good.

Or even me going. But my main thing is I would love to see every artist from Ngukurr having an exhibition out of Australia, you know. I'll put a really big one outside somewhere. America, Germany, somewhere.

Maybe getting out there. Yeah.

And I'm thinking it'd be good to, if the more I do my artwork, I'll be leaving an income for my family if I go, you know. there'll be something there for them.

Courtney: When we spoke on the phone the other day, you were saying you would go mad, if you couldn't paint. And I was saying I would go mad if I couldn't write. What do you think it is about making artwork that changes how you feel?

Karen: Mostly it relaxes me and it takes away all my stress. As an artist, I'm in another [00:26:00] world. I'm not thinking about anything. Like if I have a problem, Of course, you know, in the community we have a lot of problems sometimes. And you can't say you're not involved because some of them are your relation.

And it really gets to you. But when I go to the arts centre, I don't think about anything. Because, I don't know, I just love doing it. I just love it. I love doing art. No matter what style, either it's printing or painting,

I gotta do it.

Courtney: Karen Rogers, you are such an inspiring person. When I'm at my desk now at home, I think about the way that you turn up to work every day. And you sit down and you paint and you, just keep on painting.

And you do it in such a steady way, with no fuss, no big story, no drama. And it really inspires me just to keep going,. So thank you. I can't wait to see your work. Reach the world. I have no doubt it will.[00:27:00] 

This is the season one finale of Are You Still Working? an independently produced podcast by me, Courtney Collins, and produced by Lisa Madden. If there is an artist you'd like us to interview for season two, do let us know through Instagram at Are you still working podcast?

We'd also love to hear from you. If any episodes have inspired your own projects, a heartfelt thanks to all of the wonderful artists we interviewed in season one and to you, gorgeous listener till next time.