Joy Mei En Lai - Photographer

Photographer Joy Mai En Lai has worked in Sydney's leading cultural institutions for more than a decade, including the Library of NSW. Her photographs regularly appear in print, exhibitions and on the facades of prominent public buildings. 

Born in Aotearoa/New Zealand, Joy has also lived in Asia and Australia. Based on Gadigal Country in Sydney, she creates work from her own explorations and commissioned assignments.

Joy discusses the rewards of leaving the comfort of her city apartment for the discoveries she makes – about herself and her environment.

We HEART Joy Mei En Lai.

Transcript

Are You Still Working?! Episode 6 - Joy Mei En Lai - Photographer 
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Courtney: [00:00:00] Hello, gorgeous listeners. Welcome to Are You Still Working? How to take your creative ideas seriously. I'm Courtney Collins, and this is episode six, an interview with photographer Joy Mei En Lai. As you'll hear from Joy herself, she is a night owl, and we are so grateful she got up early on a Saturday morning so we could have this conversation in person.

We'd all had a coffee, but you can still hear the morning croak in our voices. 

 Joy,

Welcome. 

Did you have a sense of yourself as an artist from a young age?

Joy: I didn't really know what the artist label really was. It was just more like, this is just who I am and this is what I'm doing and it's a bit weird

Courtney: Yeah.

Joy: daydreamy. For me, like photography is such a natural thing and framing in my mind is a natural thing and thinking about light and composition I guess it's [00:01:00] not ever really forced, but it's just something that I kind of think about, I don't really know why it's always been like that. But the camera and learning about lighting and learning about controlling lighting and sometimes not controlling lighting just seemed to really work with what I was seeing in my head.

Yeah. And a lot of the time, like even when I'm shooting people and portraits. I can kind of see what I need to create before it happens, it's just something that kind of unfolds in my head and then I go, okay, how do I go about doing that? What I want to show?

Courtney: In your creative journey, when and how did you learn to take your ideas seriously and and respond to them?

Joy: I don't know if there was ever any other option to be honest. No. I mean, you know, I've got pretty traditional Asian parents and they're still like, even now saying stuff like, oh yeah, well you could retrain and be a doctor.

And I'm like, ah, no. [00:02:00] You know, I'm like in my mid forties, I'm probably not gonna retrain and be a doctor. I think. I think that's fine. And they, they're happy and proud of what I do. 

Courtney: And your decision to be a photographer was. that a surprise to them or to you?

Joy: Not so much to them. Like when I was a kid, I was always drawing or painting or daydreaming or, you know, kind of had like a very creative head space and they were just like, Hmm, okay, cool. My brother is super academic and he's a anesthetist. So I think that he was already ticking those boxes for them and I. I just never thought that I would do anything that wasn't creative, essentially. for me, like there's not ever really any other option. they were just like, okay, well, you know, get into uni and see how you go. 

When I got into Sydney College of the Arts and I actually majored in painting and minored and photography, but I just [00:03:00] thought like being a professional p ainter wasn't really a thing that I could do. Just like, you know, who makes it really outside of art school in terms of painting and all of that painting kind of study and knowledge was really funnelable, is that a word into photography? Absolutely. And so I channeled it that way 

And I started like assisting a bunch of photographers and, you know, shooting events and shooting whatever. I could really, tourist locations, working on commission, just doing anything that was kind of camera based. it's just na natural really being a photographer. I think as well, like it comes from a sense of just knowing who I am as a person and probably have from a young age. And I think that's probably why it's instinctive

Courtney: Mm-hmm. did it take long for you to find your people in the sense of other people who spoke that language or understood that sensibility? Yeah.

Joy: Well certainly like art school [00:04:00] kind of channels you in the right direction. Sure. 

And photography a little bit, but more like, some of my lifelong friends I've met from dance floors, which is great. And working in photo labs when we're all kind of like young and working for like $11 an hour, but you've got a really cool group of friends. So it took me a while to find my people, but yeah. Yeah. Got some good ones now. Yeah.

Courtney: What are you working on now of your own?

Joy: Of my own. well, you know, when we were all kind of locked down and everyone was itching to get out, during the 5K radius restriction. I started just walking at night. 

I've probably been living in Dulwich Hill for about a year, and it was really interesting just discovering all the little back streets that I hadn't really explored along before. particularly at night. with that air of COVID menace, I suppose.

I, I just started looking at my urban landscape [00:05:00] in a particular way. I was just carrying a digital camera with me generally. 

So I started kind of looking at locations and thinking about this impending covid threat which, you know, was invisible, but obviously had huge effect. And just how that uber protective mindset colored that urban landscape. So I started shooting at night and I was also like weirdly reading about. Edward Hopper and the Work Night Hawks, and I thought, oh, night Hawks. That's just such a nice kind of parallel to the situation that we are in.

Am I the night hawk who are the night hawks? You know, essentially, exploring these ideas of protectiveness and loneliness and isolation, but also the space that all of those ideas bring to urban living, which is usually obviously so bustly and busy and, you know, all of a sudden we kind of hit pause and it was fascinating, but also [00:06:00] I live in a tiny two bedroom flat and I was just physically needing to go for walks every night and use my photography eye. So I'm still working on that though. It's taken a different slant because obviously we're not locked down anymore, but there's still a stillness of the city in these small hours of the morning or, when everyone's doing their things inside. And particularly in Winter. I think we have different habits, so I'm still doing that though.

It's just slow. It's much slower, and I'm balancing that with my own nine to five work.

Courtney: Mm-hmm. So before we talk about your nine to five, work, do you think of yourself as a night hawk? The Night hawk?

Joy: Yeah, I would say that I'm naturally attuned to just being more awake and more creative and more alert at night than in the morning, just naturally. So I guess that's true. And my dad jokingly called me a night owl cuz he is also similar What gives you courage and confidence to [00:07:00] continue doing your own work and leaving the comfort of your home at night?

Joy: I guess there's just a fascination with the world. there's nuance and what we do every day. there's kind of life that just happens whether someone's observing or not. Like it's all fascinating. Down to even the way, you know, the light is dancing off a surface or a shadow and sound, which I wish I could convey, and smell and the quality of air. I feel like a bit of a sponge you know, absorbing it all and somehow like churning it out through my camera to show other people. 

Courtney: So your situation now is that you have a day job as a photographer at the State Library of New South Wales.

Joy: Yeah. so for the library, it's any archive kind of photography. Any reformatting, kind of archive photography that will end up being in exhibitions or shooting content for exhibitions. And anything that [00:08:00] they want for social media or new acquisition photography. It's pretty amazing that the library has a massive collection of objects and a lot of it's digitized, but a lot of it isn't. So my team are shooting it to make it available on the catalog to make it available for anyone. So I'll do some of that, but also I'll, be shooting for the magazine So it's widely varied and really great. Yeah. And challenging, but, has a lot of variety 

Courtney: Tell us about the archive project you're currently working on.

Joy: I've been working on this collection of early glass plate negatives. I'm taken by Frank Hurley, who was the official photographer for the British Imperial Antarctic expedition. Which was pretty much led by Ernest Shackleton in 1914, and it was the first attempt to cross the mass of Antarctica, which was about 2000 kilometers.

So Frank Hurley, who was a [00:09:00] bit of a Renaissance man who actually like weirdly was born in Glebe he was working as a commercial photographer and he met Shackleton. You know, impressed Shackleton with his general kind of hero ness.

Ended up becoming the official photographer for the Antarctic expedition and shooting on this system called Paget, which is a French invention. So it's early glass plate color negatives. And each one is made up of two sheets of glass. And one of them is like a black and white glass plate.

The other is color but broken down into red, green, blue. So when you sandwich the plates together, it's a little bit like. A screen, kind of a mesh pattern. It's a bit like Lichtenstein's dots, you know, that kind of dot formation. So he traveled with probably 30 other men to Antarctica and their ship.

The [00:10:00] endurance which was built for really cold and, you know, rugged kind of sea ice was eventually frozen in to Antarctica and the party were forced to abandon the ship pretty much and traverse kilometers of sea ice and head to a nearby island, which I think was Elephant Island and get rescued.

So, these color plates were like the forefront off color imaging technology. And he took about, I think 400 images of Antarctica and, you know, the ship and life in the cabin. But when they were forced to abandon ship he literally had to edit the pictures. So apparently Frank Hurley and Ernest Shackleton sat on the ice and reviewed the images went, oh no, that's not good enough. And Smashed smashed the ones that were b-grade. And they were left with 120.[00:11:00] 

So they did that because He didn't wanna have any second thoughts about going back cuz they really just had to cut down the weight and get out of there. So the library has 32 of them, of these original plates and I've been digitizing them, which means they get illuminated from below from a light box and captured with a camera, high res camera.

And then I've been editing color, editing them. So, working in red, green, blue channels and working in highlight mid tone and shadows and going into each one of those. Adjusting the colors to what I'm seeing in front of me. So it's been a long process, but super amazing and rewarding when you know the story. 

Courtney: Incredible. Thank you. So you, you are describing that, you are having late nights due to the day job. How do you keep energy for your own work?

Joy: It's hard,

Courtney: Mm-hmm.

Joy: hard striking the balance all the [00:12:00] time,

Courtney: Mm-hmm. 

Joy: I feel lucky and incredibly grateful that I can make this a job. Every day I feel lucky that I can actually be thinking like this for my work and that someone or the government is paying me for how I see the world.

In terms of how I differentiate, work, nine to five work to personal work, you know, like nine to five work fulfilling a brief, so it's someone else's need, and personal work is more like my own need to get it out essentially.

But one thing will inspire the other, which is great. And often they cross over, like a few years ago in 2018, we traveled through rural New South Wales meeting people from aboriginal communities to really kind of think about aboriginal language and language revitalization Definitely for me it was like mesh of my own interests and I was shooting landscapes. So really amazing, kind of wide [00:13:00] panoramic, kind of establishing shots. And that's what I like to do anyway when I go away or when I go on a road trip just for recreation. so it seemed that, all of a sudden I was in the right place and doing what I, what I really wanted to do.

And then started doing more of that because, I mean, partly I think the fashion with exhibitions is that like physically huge , massive imagery, which is kind of immersive. So, that's been really fun and great. 

Courtney: Do you think that trip through. Regional, New South Wales and visiting First Nations communities, did that shift the way you shoot landscape in any way?

Joy: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Like even, acknowledging and thinking about First Nations and the communities and the lands and waters that I'm in it just gives you another dimension and perspective to how you are seeing and being essentially in the country,

Courtney: looking at your work there's this kind of [00:14:00] displacement for me in viewing it. it, and even imagining where you are located in, in terms of, you can look at the image and just forget that a human took, took the image because it's so, you know, you are in deep water or in this kind of an incredible wild element. Can you describe just, I guess, the physicality of how that gets to happen?

Joy: Oh, that's a nice question. Thank you. Oh, I dunno, Partly it's how I feel in the landscape. Like I'm small, I'm, you know, usually there on my own. Certainly for the stuff in New Zealand that I've shot. Recently on my website, you know, it was a lot of driving to a remote spot that I always kind of wanted to go to and you know, raining kind of torrentially and steep hip and bends and, you know, feeling a bit like, oh my God, if my car went over the cliff, no one would know. So there's all that, like, feeling very small in the elements [00:15:00] which I guess comes through in the work. And then when I'm there, like I'm such a small part of the landscape, I like to try and kind of convey the, the wonderment, I guess of it all. Mm-hmm. Somehow. 

I do have quite a bit of family in New Zealand. So when I go over I like to catch up with family but also grab a car and get out of the family thing as well.

Just feel a bit of head space and, cause it's such a good opportunity.

Courtney: Some of the images are so elemental and there's so much energy coming out of element that it just reaches so directly, like it's very, it's very evocative. Very energetic. And then there are others. That just, I want to say what is, what is going on here that seems to open up a, a story world. 

Joy: Well, I guess, often photography is used I wanna say like an ad for a place, and especially since you know, Australia's colonized New Zealand's colonized and. [00:16:00] And I think that when settlers came and landscape photography particularly was used to bring, further settlement into the area. Come, come look at all this that can be cleared and have your sheep here and you know, we can divide it off into subplots and blah, blah, blah. But when I am somewhere, kind of resonates with me. It's more about, like you say, the elements and feeling more like we are just kind of visiting an area it's a temporal thing.

And definitely with New Zealand you feel that energy it's a young country and it's, volcanic, It's rugged, obviously, and there is that kind of, yeah, super elemental kind of vibe.

Courtney: Mm. 

Joy: To the place, which I, I love and tap into. And then, yeah, it's partly the fact that humans, but also me scale wise compared to this amazing place is it's so extreme. 

Courtney: Yeah. Is there a, [00:17:00] a kind of persona that you inhabit when you are alone and in those wild places you described? You know, I guess the question of are you the night hawk? Or do you lose consciousness of, of yourself as Joy?

Joy: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. It just becomes like more about. Like getting lost and getting lost is okay, like physically, but also kind of mentally and becoming like there's no other sense of what else could I do here? 

Courtney: Do you ever find yourself coming back to a question you are trying to answer or that that's guiding you in your work? 

Joy: Not any one question.

Courtney: Mm.

Joy: Hmm. More like Exploring kind of concepts and, and even like visually exploring like technique or lighting or imagery in some way. I don't think that it is like, oh, I'm, gonna think about shooting a whole bunch of things in black and white and how can I explore that? It's more like I need to go here. And think [00:18:00] about this one place or think about the story a around this place and see what can be kind of brought to the light.

Is there an example of this? I was really struck by the guardians in your New Zealand work. 

Yeah. That place is amazing. Yeah, 

Courtney: it actually is Just outside of Auckland, I was thinking about somewhere that I could go that was a bit of a short drive, but also somewhere where I could spend lots of time with lots of diversity in the landscape. And this place is, known for its black sand and high, I think it's basalt content sand, but also there's a really amazing biodiverse, shrub forest leading up to the beach area. So I started reading about it and started kind of researching it and then discovered that, oh, this is actually where like Jane Campion shot that scene in the piano where [00:19:00] they're kind of you know, Harvey Keitel and he is like, you know, Mr. Hunky and, and they have to rescue the piano and she's playing on the beach and it's all like foggy and salt spray and romantic. But then beyond that, I was reading about one of New Zealand's largest shipwrecks, which happened there because the Bay is so treacherous.

And then also in the same area I was reading about I think it was the 1920s. Some of the locals used the sea caves as.

like party spaces. they laid down wooden floorboards and had like dancers, which is pre pretty amazing. And you can even find washed up bits of like floorboard in some of the sea caves. and also thinking about how the indigenous population kind of inhabited and used the land, and how settlers really logged all the forests in the area. So lots of stories and lots of layers of stories. I guess we were intriguing for me. for this place. [00:20:00] And I was reading about the Maori names, which Rough translation is the place for spiritual guardians, mm-hmm. which is so beautiful. You know, where taniwha would come to meet and a taniwha is like a New Zealand spirit essentially.

Courtney: So before you take the photograph, what, conditions need to be present for you to know that this is gonna be worth getting a camera out for?

Joy: if I'm out in the field, I'll do a bit of research and kind of read about what's been written or shot in the area.

Courtney: Mm-hmm. 

Joy: And not that I want to be influenced by that, but more like how do I not be that in a way.  Or if it's a person reading about the person and often I shoot writers for work, so I read their piece and think about how to bring those elements of their work to the picture.

Courtney: Mm-hmm. 

Joy: But also mood is pretty strong. You know what mood you want to convey. I mean, Lisa knows from like traveling with her that I don't love shooting in like broad [00:21:00] kind of daylight or flat overcast skies, cuz the lighting is often a bit flat, a bit dull. So early morning or late night.

Courtney: Yeah. Yeah. So when you are taking portraits and you are bringing out something authentic and, revealing, how do you, in, I'm assuming a relatively short amount of time, establish that or even what that authentic thing is.

Joy: Yeah, that's hard. I guess, reading about the person and obviously what their work is about, but also just chatting with someone, get a good feel really, and really trying to engage with them.

And, and I can do that pretty quickly cuz everyone's interesting. I find like every person is interesting and just finding what that is, I guess, and kind of thinking about their energy as a person and how they present themselves. A lot of the time I kind of wanna get beyond how they present themselves [00:22:00] and think about how they just are as people, like kind of chatting with them, but also observing them yeah.

Courtney: Are there any practices or rituals that help you be receptive and, be the sponge? 

Joy: Well, there's always like, okay, where am I going? What do I need going through my gear? It's just that really physical kind of preparation are my batteries charged? what tripod should I take? How should I get there? Should I walk, should I drive? That kind of thing. 

And the act of walking itself is preparation for being in the space. And talking with people or you know, hearing responses to the work, all of that is very encouraging

Courtney: Mm-hmm.

Joy: gives me confidence. And it's just really great, like sharing ideas talking to other photographers or talking to other artists really who are also influential. 

Courtney: Is there anyone in particular alive or past who has been a mentor for you?

Joy: I've assisted a [00:23:00] variety of photographers and different elements of a lot of those experiences, I still think about and it's nice as well when I can be in a situation and think, oh yeah, that's a really good way to approach that particular issue. But I mean, aesthetically, I worked with Anne Zahalka for a number of years and she's still a really good friend. So I would say that she's probably, I mean, we chat now about photography and the tradition of photography in the craft of photography, but I can kind of set up say an environmental portrait of somebody working in a space and then someone who I don't know might come along and go, oh, that's very much like an Anne Zahalka picture.

And I'll go, oh, oh yeah, okay. I guess that makes sense. Which is kind of nice as well. But you know, not, not always. I've kind of looked to other artists and other mediums. For not so much like an aesthetic kind of influence, [00:24:00] but more like oh, how did Rembrandt, light that particular group portrait in his painting?

And then I'll think about, the painterly effects of, the light coming through window and that kind of thing. 

Courtney: Is there anywhere that you regularly reach to in terms of something that you listen to or something that you read that gives you inspiration?

Joy: Always like devouring photography books generally, or books about painters or, even ceramicists, thinking about form and lines of composition. So it comes from everywhere. Instagram. Yeah. You know the national Gallery of Victoria I was at a garage sale recently and bought a book on Turner thinking about his incredible paintings and the turn of the century industry and what kind of crazy vibe that would've been, you know, and how that really shaped his paintings. So it all kind of is like a hodgepodge of influence

Courtney: With your titles. Some of them strike me as incredibly literary and [00:25:00] some I wanna steal as novel titles, but I won't. How much thought goes into, your titles? 

Joy: Often it's just a place and a time, which I just wanna record, but other times it's a feeling. So it's very instinctual. And I would say that about my whole practice, that it's all like really instinctive. And not so much a reaction or a problem to be solved, but more like, oh, this is just how it is. 

For me

mm.

Love that.

Courtney: Is there any image on screen or on film that you wish that you created?

Joy: No.

Courtney: no. Cool.

Joy: No. 

Like someone else's?

Courtney: Yeah, someone else's.

Joy: Oh, right. No, no, no. I never really have that. I. We kind of like look at other people's work a lot and go, oh wow, that is incredible. But, it's more like respect that I look at someone else's work and when it strikes a chord in me, I kind of, well, how did they do that? Or what a lot to wrangle or, [00:26:00] you know, that kind of thing. more often than not, I find work inspiring. 

Courtney: Joy, you've been incredibly inspiring.

Joy: Oh, Thanks. 

Courtney: Thank you. And thank you for sharing I, I think probably questions that don't get leveled at you.

Joy: Yeah, no, not at all. Thanks.

Courtney: You can see some of Joy's Nighthawk series on our Insta page at Are You Still Working?! Podcast. Are you still working is an independently produced podcast by me, Courtney Collins and produced by Lisa Madden. If you enjoyed listening, you can support us by reviewing it and telling all your friends.

And if there are artists you'd love us to feature, you can direct message us on Instagram till next time.